Wardeccers who enjoy the fight itself and take the time and effort to create content are one of the few sources of interesting things happening in highsec. The watchlist nerf was a big one, and highsec is much less interesting because of it. The hunters can't find the prey, so they turn to just lying in wait to get any content at all.

So while I disagree with you that something is wrong because not every war has some greater meaning, I do agree with you that CCP really needs to focus on giving us reasons to fight not just in highsec, but everywhere.

If they don't want to fight, why do they declare so many wardecs?

IThis is all intended and legal game play. Corporations are suppose to defend themselves from direct attacks, extortion attempts and 'robbing' wardecs. Why should that be patched out of the game? Because you don't like them?

Corporations are the competitive unit of Eve. They are suppose to defend themselves from all-comers, not just who they want to fight. That's the type of game play that happens in a PvP sandbox game. Are you sure you are playing the right game for your soft sensibilities?

Why do they have the upper hand? No, serious question here.

If you get the guys who declared war to dock up...you win that engagement. Yes, I know that is the frustrating thing about HS war decs. Force them do dock up often enough/regularly they'll move on. That is how it works, you can either deny them content by docking up, or forcing them to dock up. Either way the way to winning a war is via ship spinning.

There is every reason and that is it is one of the rules by which people can opt to interact with each other. For example, if I'm doing lots of industrial stuff in a small out of the way system and you show up and start using it too...I might be pissed and not like you moving in on "my turf" so I go hire some guys to come make your life miserable till you move on. Perfectly legitimate and makes for an interesting game.

[quoteIf wardeccs should stay there must be some structure that the decced corp can destroy to stop the decc for something like 6 weeks. This way the deccing corp has to come out and fight or watch their deccs going down for a long time.

You seem to be confused about what a war is. It is not some arranged duel at the sun where honourable warriors engage in a battle only for glory. It is a cut-throat, no-holds-barred, fight for dominance. Going after your enemy's supply lines and logistics is not only legal, but a smart strategy when trying to vanquish your opponent, as is protecting your own industrial and logistics operations.

Shooting an undefended hauler is every much a fight as some fleet action assaulting a structure. Degrading and destroying your enemy's capacity to wage war is a classic strategy to victory.

I am all for wardeccers having a structure that can be counter-attacked, but what you are complaining is exactly what most of Eve PvP is. You cannot force players to undock. If they don't want to give you a fight, they won't. There is nothing you can do to force gate campers, suicide gankers, hunters stalking in wormholes, or even the large former-nullsec groups like the Imperium and PL which base out of unassailable lowsec stations, to give you a fight. They can attack you and then retreat to their home station and there is absolutely nothing you can do. That's not true actually, you can stalk them, bait them, trick them or just bide your time until they get complacent and get then get the drop on them, but you can't force them to undock.

This.

Thanks to CODE. and CCP, flying a freighter is no longer a solo pilot endeavor. It used to be if you weren't a blundering idiot. But not thanks to CCP's nerfs, and the response that is CODE. and those like them...flying a freigher (a capital ship) in HS is now a multi-person/multi-account activity.

Flying one during a war dec...I'm sorry are you insane? Unless you have sufficient back up and are laying a very juicy trap....undocking a freighter after you have been warned about the war dec....well you are just dumb.

Then I suggest you learn how to fight.

Or perhaps consider using Red Frog.

Or perhaps consider the utility of an OOC alt in a NPC corp.

These are the things NS corps do....

It doesn't have to be easy.

But then, people shouldn't go complaining that blanket wardecs happen, since that's more likely, in the absence of watchlist notification, to produce targets for wardeccers.

Hunters tried to hunt once the changes occured. The blanket wardecs are the result. They are just trying to have fun.

As for this gem: "Why do they have to choose people that don't want to fight if there are people that want fights?"

Here's the deal, mate. You've chosen to play a PvP game, that means PvP is going to come for you, whether you want it to or not. If you really don't want PVP, don't log in. Let me put it another way.

By virtue of logging in to EVE, you've told everyone else logged into EVE that you're willing to PVP. And no, staying in high sec is not an escape from PVP. It was never meant to be. Any player's misunderstanding of the PVP nature of EVE really is their own error. If you don't like PVP, but log into a PVP game anyway, that is on you.

By the same argument, if you don't want to be subject to wardecs, go to low or null.\

Highsec is just as valid a place to play as anywhere else. Yes, there is no security status loss. That's the whole reason wardecs exist.

As to waredeccing is just robbery. There are a lot of reasons people use the wardec mechanics. Robbery may well be one of them, but not the only one. The good thing is, CCP don't dictate why the mechanics should be used. They just provide them for players to use for their own reasons.

When you log in to a pvp game, and tell people that there is nothing you can do against people pvp'ing against you, despite all the pvp tools being readily available to you, we all look at you with little more than bemusement. You are a victim of your own choices, not wardecs, if you think that decced corps can't do anything about a dec.

Additionally, the vulnerability window will, as you say, lead to better target selection or as I'd put it more precise selection. After all, I wouldn't just go deccing every other corp I see lest some of them is in my vulnerability window and they get together to start taking down my structures.

Why? Don't worry, rhetorical question.

I'll give my views though....

1. There is no CONCORD presence to give a false feeling of safety. Thus, you are much more aware of what is going on. Players will likely watch local, watch intel channels, and the really good ones will be in the standing fleet and on comms. These things can minimize your risk and maybe even save your bacon.

2. NS entities do tend to react in an aggressive and hostile manner to interlopers. 99.99% of HS players will not react that way, and when they do, it is via war decs. So you can't make "your space" safe in HS.

3. Only those player ready and willing to deal with the requirements to minimize risk are in NS--i.e. a much lower population.

4. Your targets are free to shoot back withe zero downside (no sec status loss, no CONCORD, no criminal flag, etc.).

This doesn't mean a roam won't come through a NS region and kill whatever they can, but they can't opt to say for overly long or they'll elicit and overwhelming counter response.

I'm just pointing out that it is absurd to recommend a casual trip into 0.0 to a typical idiot high-sec miner as a "safe" way to avoid wars... Because they aren't in a group. At all. And they suck at all things EVE....so unless you are going to hold their hand and bottle feed them...yeah...


edit: I mean we are talking about people who can't grasp the concept of "Just don't fly to Jita for 1 week, until the war ends" - and will fly not once but *multiple times* into static gate camps with haulers full of all their ore they have spent weeks/months/years mining...And still can't figure out how/why they are being killed...

What?

You think 30 neuts in a system in highsec is more complicated to keep up safety than 30 neuts in a system in sov null?

Lol. That's got to be a joke.


Again, what?

Sov is safer because if it isn't blue shoot it? How is everyone shooting everyone safer?

Little hint for you, the typical 'not idiot' players that CCP class as 'professionals' do everything.

If the, according to you, 'typical idiot high-sec miners' didn't exist, then everyone else that is already mining and manufacturing would continue to do that.

Well if you want to go *there* - then let me enlighten you:

That is the best part.

High sec miners are *so stupid* that in addition to making themselves effort free, juicy, *profitable* targets in war-time... They KEEP ON MINING.

Not only that, some of them like to dabble in building things - and they are so stupid they think all of their ore is worth 0 isk - so they then sell their produced items *below* the build cost of the actual manufacturers, keeping prices down for all of my equipment.

And you know what? The *more* people blow them apart and steal everything they've worked for - the *more* pressure they put on themselves to try to "expand" their operations into things like production to try to earn back their lost isk.

It is a vicious cycle that could only be broken if they managed to actually *think* about what they were doing for a few seconds - meaning it will *never end*. .

No. You are an idiot.

You act as if I'm proposing something, but I'm not. I am merely factually describing the way the game *actually is*. Right now.

This is not my ideal version of the game. Far from it indeed. But this *is* the game we are playing in RIGHT NOW. That is just a fact. You can whine about it all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that what I said *is the current reality* - and unless something unexpected happens it is going to remain the reality going forward.


You can whine all you want and demand a mechanic change to magically "fix" wars - but none of your ideas will actually help in any way whatsoever. The primary problem is the mindset of high-sec residents. And I just don't see that changing, no matter what they do to the mechanics.

This is just reality. Deal with it.

But now lets say CCP introduces your structure, and a wardec corp now needs to put up some sort of building to declare war on you - and you can end the war by killing it. Lets say, just as an example, because they have been posting here, you are war-decced by The Devil's Warrior Alliance.

Are you *really* going to go and assault their structure? Or are you just going to complain that they are too powerful, and keep hiding/avoiding war like you do right now?

Be honest now. It isn't going to change your behaviour. You are going to continue avoiding war.

The first already has all the protection he needs. He can just drop to an NPC Corp at any point and be completely immune. He can even start the same Corp again later on.

Nothing the wardeccers can do to stop him.


So then why all the tears claiming protection is needed if 99+ % is totally unaffected.

You want 100% safety? How close to 100% is good enough when it's as you put it, already 99+ % and tax evasion has a bigger impact than ganking/wardeccing?

Why you call miners idiots I'll never know. They are just as legitimate a group of players as anyone. Not more equal in terms of deserving protections that no one else has, but equally valid as anyone.

Who cares whether you think it's a valid or not. Your just a random forum idiot like the rest of us.

Your opinion means nothing more than anyone else's. The mechanic exists and is used everyday, so as far as your opinion goes, it's worth less than CCP's, who think the ability to drop Corp is valid.

**** some people have a high opinion of themselves, when all they really offer is ridiculous.

hahaha, space herpies

#1 your numbers are of course biased, and don't even include some major ganking systems since you limited it to the forge itself rather than the routes leading into the forge...

But even so, your numbers show pretty convincingly that the idiot high-sec miners are barely even a factor in production. Only 1.5B isk was mined - but 32B isk was produced. That means only 4.5% of production in the forge came form ore mined in high sec. 95.5% of the ore came from elsewhere.

Also considering that 95% of the high-sec idiots aren't even at war even with the wardec spamming in EVE today, and that they only account for 0.23% of the value imported into the forge... That means the wardec spamming corps killed 5-600% of the total value of every single miner in the forge combined. It is pretty impressively idiotic that 5% of the miners can lose 6x the total value produced by all of the rest *combined*. You will never convince me that they are not idiots for doing this.

Additionally, more isk was lost than was mined.

By your own admission the high sec idiots (who only made 1.5b isk from the ore they mined per your numbers) gave the war-spamming hub-humping corp(s) in Jita 6 billion isk in profit in whatever period you are looking at. And that is *only* in Jita - that doesn't even count the other trade hubs or the major pipeline choke points!



Finally - I have said this before and I'll say it again - *I* am not in a large war-spamming corp. *I* am not doing any of the things you are talking about. And the people who are doing it, aren't *trying* to "make a dent" - they are just *farming kills and isk*. Successfully.

Why don't *you* stop flying your jump freighter full of plex into gate camps while you are at it? You may in fact be the dumbest person in all of EVE.

This risk averse nature is something both victims and wardeccers are guilty of; once upon a time we did indeed form up in T1, meta 4 battlecruisers because we were too scrubby to fly anything else... and do you know what these badazz mercs did? They docked up three days in a row, then dropped the wardec.

COME ON! Wasn't this why you wardec'ed us in the first place, I have to wonder? Didn't you want to fight?

I have. Why should every group in Eve always have a chance to successfully fight back against every other group? There is a huge variation in the size and strength of the groups in Eve ranging from the might of a full-fledged nullsec coalition, to the corporation of three real-life friends who joined the game last month to mine in highsec. How can you balance the game so that every group has a chance against any other group? You can't, not without completely throwing out the non-consensual sandbox element the game was founded on.

Fights between unequally matched sides are the norm in Eve, not the exception. Wardecs are no different. Many players seem to be unable to accept this reality of Eve and that wardecs are not some 'matchmaker' mechanic designed to produce 'gud fights' but rather just the mechanic by which the intended player-driven, sandbox gameplay can take place in highsec.

Take a step back and look at the big picture.

Much as I hate to agree with Geronimo even to a tiny degree....Yeah, maybe the excessive killboard shaming of some groups is also a factor. Aside from the public killboards/etc I've seen a lot of corps really lay into their younger members for losses just using the internal corp kill records as well. Removing all records of kills might well encourage more new players to get out there and have some fun - but it would also infuriate 90+% of the EVE PvP Community, many of whom are inordinately proud of their killboards...quite possibly to the point of rioting or quitting... So it isn't really an option.